When and where did they first meet. If we didnt also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. For instance, Shammai believed the halachot they created that gentiles could never be saved or be in covenant and to eat with them was idolatry. Although in the Bible there are verses speaking about Pauls sister and nephew, there are no references to Pauls wife. In Philippians 2:6-11 Paul states that Christ Jesus was preexistent and came to earth: he "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness." This sounds as if Jesus was a heavenly being who only appeared to be human. In Acts 14:23, we read: Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church. I dont know of a single church that simply teaches the Bible simply and preaches the whole counsel of God, including Pauls sins and mistakes. For example, I talk a bit about this issue in these posts: https://readingacts.com/2013/08/29/the-new-perspective-on-paul-did-paul-convert-to-christianity/, https://readingacts.com/2013/09/08/paul-and-judaism/, https://readingacts.com/2017/09/04/was-paul-a-pharisee/. I dont have any position or influence in the Christian world. Paul, Silas, and Timothy, now joined by Luke, sailed from Troas to Greece and made their way to Philippi. So Ill smoke with them, but I wont let the weed alter my own mind, because I didnt inhale! In order to be accepted in the Establishment church fellowship, you have to smoke the weed of Paul Worship- just be true to yourself and dont inhale., Maybe I could speak in code, like they did in the New Testament church with the fish symbol. Supposition and/or conjecture certainly can allow for a yes that he was probably there because a Pharisee would most likely have gone to Jerusalem for the Pasch, Passover. The revelation of the Gospel directly from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12), most probably in Arabia. How many times did Jesus speak to Paul? Deuteronomy 29:29. Tha A in TanAch. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. To what extent should we use Pauls training at the feet of Gamaliel as background to understanding his later theology? It is also possible that Paul adopted many of Gamaliels teachings but, due to his youthful age, he decided to be more proactive. In fact in the book of John Jesus is pointed out as a Pharisee. Only $35.99/year. Im glad no one disagrees with me. I am trying to understand this whole post, but think the discussion is mainly about Paul and why he acted the way he did in persecuting christians after studying under Gamaliel who was more concerned with non violent acts. Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. The people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the dead. Well considering I am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read.. Well, I did take a few music classes there part-time for two or three semesters, and one time, Marco Barrientos was a substitute teacher in one of my classes for maybe 45 minutes. Paul was accustomed to learning from his elders as he developed as a Pharisee (Galatians 1:14). As is his conventional style, NT Wright is overly presuppositionsal in so much of his theology generally that I cannot personally ascribe to him much status as a scholarly commentator . These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. The relics of Saint Stephen were translated several months later to . According to tradition, Gamaliel and Nicodemus buried Saint Stephen outside of Jerusalem. They are Right On! I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. Reblogged this on By the Mighty Mumford and commented: AN INTELLECTUAL OF THE TIME, PAUL LEARNED FROM THE BEST AND MOST COMPASSIONATE TEACHER AROUND! . I need to refine that. As for burying Stephen, even if Gamaliel was not a Christian he would have been motivated to care for the dead, as demonstrated in Tobit. But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. There were no other New Testament books, and the Hebrew Scriptures were the Old Testament which was irrelevant, according to the heretic Marcion.) I have also posted dozens of articles on the literature of the Second Temple Period, all of which ought to interest you. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of thrones rather than twelve thrones as he had previously. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. Paul enunciated precisely the same principle in Romans 7:2 (Polhill 30). Taken directly from Talmud. The words of Jesus are superior to the words of everyone else in the Bible and to everyone else in the world. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a short time. Perhaps this may not be too much of a stress, no? I dont want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family). From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. Who needs truth in relationship, when I can quickly get market share, and totally dominate the market, through mergers and acquisitions? I would need to find an online edition of the Clementine Literature and hope there is a search capacity. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some (1 Corinthians 9:22 ESV).. Plenty of time for him to get familiar with popular Greek culture in order to draw appropriate analogies. If Saul is in fact a disciple of Gamaliel, then he seems to have a considerably different opinion on how to handle the apostolic witness when we meet him in Acts 9. Finally in Troas, Paul received a vision of a man asking them to go into Macedonia (modern-day Greece). Just because Paul disagreed with Gamaliel on one tiny aspect hes therefore a from the school Shammi? 1. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) I know! (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. Why are you waiting, be of those who bow to Gods Will if you know that the Bible has lies in it and is corrupt, you must believe that a true religion exists in the world and isnt a secluded secret for the few who know! Your comments are ridiculous and borderline stupidity. Per Euseibus the first 13 bishops the Jerusalem church were Pharisee. The second passage refers to Paul. On example: I think that it is likely he on his way to being a master of Greco-Roman rhetoric prior to conversion. If anything Paul reacted on his duty to do what he thought was right and purify what was most important to him, the law. I justify everything I do If I testify about myself it MUST be true Im the only man in all history whose testimony doesnt need two or three. and to make a point in this conversation,where did you get the idea that Saul (Paul) was Jewish.? blasphemy! Jesus spoke the 3 chapters of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, including 7:12. He was also a hellene or hellenized jew of the diaspora as part of the culture of the greeks so he was also schooled in Greek logic and would have been knowledgeable in the classics of Plato and Aristotle, Stoism and Epicureanism. No accusation against the brothers No comments dark and obscure, Writing to the Church in Corinth that is what some of you were.. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Yet he verbatim stated who he was and no one in the court said otherwise but well take your word for it. The character and position of his father. He had nowhere to sleep, and had to go stay in a hotel for several days. As has been said multiple times above, it is fairly common for a pupil to break off from his teachers opinion. Dear Wilson, Yes there are ! Is AARP PO Box 93143 Long Beach CA 90809-9720 a valid address? This passion is evident in his active persecution of those he saw as going against what the Torah taught about the Messiah. In Philippians Paul describes himself as a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions faultlessly. You might be interested: Was Paul The Apostle Alive When Jesus Lived? Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in sword and sandal epic days Peter Charioteer? Maybe not. Now Ive got 3 slots open. Its not prejudice, youre blatantly misquoting Paul, Shammi and Hillel. To teach the bible, it is mandatory to teach from a Pharisaic background. We know that as a young man Paul studied under the tutelage of Rabbi Gamaliel in Tarsus, who provided him with an expert knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures ( Acts 22:3 ). Is Paul a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus? Thanks also for your series on New Perspectives. Saul (Paul) Persecutes the Church [edit | edit source] In Chapter 9 of Acts, we come into close contact with Saul, later known as Paul, for the first time. Is the Word of God a revelation to man? So when Paul wrote his two letters to the Church in Corinth, who was overseeing all aspects of the church? BOSS PAUL THE PHARISEE [sing it to the tune of Rapture by Blondie], Im Boss Paul, the Pharisee My hypocrisys plain for the world to see I travel the land and travel the sea to make a convert who is just like ME, All have sinned we know thats true but it never means ME it only means YOU My sins are all theoretical Im the worst of sinners- but dont ask where. To think that all Jewish people were completely unified is to share the same fantasy Christians have about the early church. is his own writings Acts 22 22-29. now there is the whole case of Paul a true liar. I have come to save the day! Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. [Romans 13:8-10, Leviticus 19:18]. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. He uses this in Philippians 3:12-14 to describe the Christian walk. In 2019 he published a commentary. References to Paul's ancestry and youth. You who were formerly known as gentiles. hmmm. Same question; What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? Like a little squirrel dressed up As a flying superhero We give ourselves the Title And zoom around the atmosphere Oh! What else do we know about him? Meaning people who believed in the Moshiach as Yeshua. I think the point was not that Jesus was the Messiah, but rather that Peter and John are stating that the High Priest killed the Messiah and God vindicated him by raising him from the dead. Hmmmm.. Paul adhering to the Feast of Pentacost (Acts 20:16). Have you even stepped inside shul? The sentence begins with So in the NIV and Amplified Bibles, and Therefore in the NASB and King James Bibles, which ties 7:12 to the previous sentences. The followers of Yeshua and Shaul were not called Christians. While he agrees with Gamaliel, Paul wants to protect that which he loves. Somebody did the calculations of Paul's education, and said he basically had the equivalent of two Ph.D.'s by the time he was 21 years of age. So being an Apostle of Jesus involves being sent by Jesus, yes. (Also to other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke.) When did Paul study under Gamaliel? But it begs the question Why would early Christians claim Rabban as one of their own? Jesus Leadership Training, The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World. No need to answer. Paul had decided to preach to gentiles apparently out of his own revelatory experience that this was the mission that had been given him by God when God called him to function as a prophet for this new Jesus movement. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. [Mark 6:6-7], .2) Gospel of Luke time lag between being appointed and being sent One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. . This has literally been the Orthodox position for almost 2000 years. Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses, as it says in the Law ! Peter was from the school of Shammi and Shaul was clearly from Hillel and we see this when these two Pharisee argue with each other on various topics. Why ignore the words of our Lord God Jesus Christ, Son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel, who came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets? In Acts 5:34 he appears as an advocate of the nascent congregation of Jesus' disciples in Jerusalem and is called "a Pharisee, a teacher of the Law, held in honor by all the people.". IMHO, most of the sports analogies are from the Olympic styled games which were found throughout the empires. Match. Once we allow things that we can not say with certainty, we give a foothold to the enemy to sow his seed too. Ridiculous. He left James as Nassi of his Sanhedrin, who is a Pharisee. However, as he got farther along in his faith and was eventually converted to Christianity, he became more like a Hillelite which was what Gamaliel was. (I know, captain obvious). Educated under Gamaliel, who is still to this day regarded as one of the most influential rabbis in judaism. Hello A. Gazali, It seems you have a hunger for the truth. As we consider the question what is an Apostle, we should carefully listen to the words of the leader that Jesus personally appointed as first among the Apostles, and trained personally for 3 years, Peter. Jesus never said anything like that, and Jesus did not see it that way. You seem to want to impose your views of the modern church on ancient house churches. in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. Paul would never have slowed down on his preaching to write the books in the bible we have to learn from, so God put him in prison. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. The Jewish account maintains that he remained a Pharisee until his death. Nicodemus (John 3:7-8) How many brothers did Jesus have? Mantra: Heil Hitler., .2) The self-appointed Prophet Muhammad, author of The Koran. Gamaliel became a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish court in Jerusalem. But this seems to be where the peaceful teachings of Gamaliel shine stronger. Like Brad Young, he is deeply influenced by David Flusser but unlike Flusser and Young, he is less in touch with mainstream Jewish scholarship. symphony kitchen spares; pink lily holiday dresses; hitch installation near me. Believe. Helpful. The overwhelming majority of the epistles is actually fighting against the teachings of Shammai in his time period. How about you? He has Masters degrees in Biblical Exposition and Old Testament from Talbot School of Theology (BIOLA) and a PhD in New Testament from Andrews University. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. Gamaliel is reported to have offered somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the apostles in Acts 5:34-39. How long was Paul in Arabia? It is said that in the 5th century, by a miracle, his body had been discovered and taken to Pisa Cathedral. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. I appreciate your many responses to this thread.as I wrote this response you have added a few more! 3) the apostle Paul prides himself on having sat at the feet of Gamaliel. Why is this a strange idea? 3. it is not uncommon for a student to disagree with his teachers viewpoints. St. Gamaliel, also Gamaliel the Elder or or Rabbi Gamaliel I (Hebrew: ; Greek: ) was a Pharisee who was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, a doctor of the Law (Acts 5:34-40), and the teacher of St Paul (Acts 22:3). If his father was a very zealous man as well, then there is the possibility that that affected the way that Paul thought even before he entered into the teaching of Gamaliel. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. As a teen, his family sent him to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel, the most prestigious Jewish teacher of that time, similar to a Harvard education today. Also known as Saul of Tarsus, he had been rescued by Roman troops and now faced the people from a stairway near the temple in Jerusalem. The Lord Jesus clinches this point: if ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free (John 8:31-32). This is not the sort of education most people would even want, so it is not really a college degree. Jesus warned us about the Pharisees in Matthew chapters 15 & 16, and quoted the Prophet Isaiah regarding them: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Imagine Wackyjesus in Wackyheaven, built on the foundations of 12 chalkboards: Matthias, you should have developed your skills in writing and public speaking. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. There were plenty of other messianic pretenders besides Jesus, the difference is that some claimed that he was raised form the dead. Pauls relationship with Gamaliel two years ago, Paul and Gamaliel | ChristianBookBarn.com, The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World. 3) Paul exaggerating his ministry in Ephesus claiming it was 3 years night and day with tears when really it was 3 months in the synagogue and 2 years daily in a lecture hall. Very much the contrary. The people who will protest most loudly against this truth are the modern Pauls: traveling evangelists, speakers, writers, abusive absentee mega-church pastors, Crusaders, and self-appointed apostles like Paul, who find it profitable to be like Paul rather than follow Jesus the Jewish Messiah. In 2019 he published a commentary. You are one of a growing number of followers of the Messiah (p) Issa/Yesha who actually have figured out Paul was a con artist sent to corrupt the movement started by the Nazarene Messiah (p) and if it failed in Pauls lifetime it succeeded under the Roman Emporer Constantine and it was Paul they revered as THE Apostle, even before Nicene Creed was made up. If he didnt have the teaching and influence then he wouldnt of had such a bold and confidence approach when speaking to other people. Paul was in Jerusalem from the age of 3 (under Gamaliel), so to assume he already knew how to WRITE Greek would be fallacious.. What does Josephus say about Gamaliel? Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. When Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after he took office. I pray that you will be blessed with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods love through the cross for you. Maybe, from what I have seen of him he does not go to great lengths on anything. Listen to him! [Mark 9:7], The Apostle John recorded the testimony of John the Baptist: I have see and I testify that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34], In contrast, Hundreds of years later Muhammad came along and wrote: God has no son.. [22] The Roman Catholic church views him as a Saint and listed him in the Roman Martyrology for August 3. This included sacrifices and multiple gods before and after the games. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. 1:1, / 1 Cor. Just moments earlier, they had almost killed the apostle Paul. A scribe would be among the most highly educated in Judaism, and since at the feet of Gamaliel implies a mentoring relationship, it seems to me that a near-equivalent would be a serious specialized Masters Program, if not a PhD. It is possible that Paul was not of the Hillel form of Pharasism, but rather the more radical Shammaite party. Oh well. Jesus commissioned the eleven With everything I have commanded you Teaching THEM to obey Jesus And THEM means me and you ! Pharisee Saul, inventor of Christianity, the new Pharisees. [Acts 19:21 22:21] . I would not limit the intervention of God in the light of Pauls claim in Galatians 1 that God had prepared him before he was born for the grace he has received (Gal 1:15). Author of the texts of Scripture here is just one, written the. Although in the Bible, it seems you have a hunger for the truth opinion... The apostles in Acts 14:23, we can not say with certainty, we can guess a birth year about... 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Too much of a stress, no back in sword and sandal epic days Charioteer! The feet of Gamaliel Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after took!
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